Using Neuroplasticity for Personal Growth with Giulia Panozzo

Tazmin 0:07

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the SEO mindset podcast where we aim to help SEO professionals optimise not just their careers but their whole life. Today I'm joined by the wonderful and very sparkly very sparkly as I've often seen her Giulia Panozzo. To learn about a topic that I'm really interested in, I teach a little bit about it, but I definitely want to learn more. And that is the topic of neuroplasticity. Giulia is the in house Director of Customer acquisitions for a global marketplace, and she is a freelance neuro marketing neuro marketing consultant. Before her digital marketing days, she obtained an MSc in cognitive neuroscience, and clinical neuro psychology and works in academic research. And she's published internationally. She also has obtained a licence to practice as a psychologist. These days, she uses her background in neuroscience research to explore what drives customers to trust and to buy. How do they process information? And how do they make decisions. I've often seen her speaking she's a regular speaker. I think I've seen her women in tech and at Brighton, where she talks about customer behaviour, and search and data analytics. Now before we dive into the topic that we're going to discuss a few reminders for everyone on how they can support the podcast. So if you're enjoying what Sara and I do, you can go onto the website and either do a one off donation, find the buy, buy me a coffee link. Or you can follow us on what people are still calling Twitter or though we've been you know, whether they've rebranded it's still called twitting on our website. Again, the link is in the website. But I'm really keen and eager to get on with today's episode. So Giulia, welcome. How are you? Thank you so much. I'm well today. Thank you. How are you? I'm really good. I'm really good. We we first spoke this Brighton that I've seen you a few times presenting. And I was really excited to get you onto the podcast and talk more about the topic that you spoke at Brighton but in general neuroplasticity because it's something you hear that it's a really good thing. And it can really help people. But maybe maybe it's just the term can feel a bit too scientific, a bit not maybe not relevant. So I'm really excited about talking about it. So why don't we dive straight in? What is it?

Giulia 3:06

So neuroplasticity is a fancy term to refer to the ability of the brain to reorganise or to rewire as a function or like as a consequence of learning experience, and sometimes after injury as well. So, it can be functional neuroplasticity. So when you know, the brain changes the function of the neurons, basically, or it can be structured on neuroplasticity, where you have actual reorganisations of the areas. So, for example, I don't know musicians or bilinguals have like, higher grey matter density in certain areas dedicated to those activities as a result of experience. So it really is maybe a daunting term for many, but it it is a superpower that we all have, and we might not even realise. And so yeah, I'm really excited to be talking about it today. So

Tazmin 4:06

I maybe it's just me, but I'm going to try and keep this as simple as possible. Even what you just said right now blew my mind, because it was okay, what does that what does that mean? That you're saying that the brain can learn, continues to be able to learn new things all the time? Is that is that essentially what it is?

Giulia 4:28

Yes. So if we take it from the very beginning, from like, you know, our very early days, obviously, the nervous system is in continuous development, and especially in childhood. And when we're kids where we're just like, bombarded by a lot of stimuli, Everything's new. So, we grow a lot of connections. And as we develop as we you know, use some connections more as we learn a certain language. For example, we go through a process that's called synaptic pruning, which is when some of those connections are lost. Basically, the ones that are not used are lost, so that the brain can more, you know, can be more adaptive and can be more functional, more effective with the connections that we actually need. So for example, there have been studies on how kids up to a certain age, and I believe it's six months, and can appreciate all of the sounds of virtually any language. But then if they're exposed only to one language, then they will react more to tau one language to those sounds. But that doesn't mean that, you know, as we proceed with age, and as we get more and more, you know, specialised in one language, or one activity, etc, it doesn't mean that we don't have the space for anything else, we can always learn we can always experience new things, and the brain will learn how to reorganise its functions or its structures in order to adapt for those new activities. And I think right now, it's quite, quite nice that, you know, we live in an age where lifelong learning is accepted, which wasn't a thing, you know, back in the day. And it's also encouraged, but a lot of the time, we tend to, to just limit this to physical activities, you know, that you can go to the gym, you grow some muscles, like if you do repetition of certain exercises. And the same goes for the brain, if you do exercise certain connections more than they will be, they will be more prominent, they will be more use, it's basically like creating a highway for certain thoughts or certain behaviour as well. So yeah, it's like, I could go down, you know, a massive rabbit hole here. But yeah, there was like a lot of examples of this even in, as I mentioned, musicians, for example. And I remember, back in university, I was running a research, and we were using TMS, which is transcranial magnetic stimulation, and it's basically it's an instrument that goes on to the scalp of the participants. So we were putting like this massive coil onto the scalp. And we needed to find the motor area in those relevant to assert the muscle of the hand in the participants. And I remember that it was so much easier for guitarists or musicians, because it was just like so much more reactive, which was really cool. And that's also been like demonstrated in bilinguals, for example, bilinguals as compared to monolinguals have more density of grey matter. So more neurons in the area, corresponding to you know, language functions. So, yeah, there's so much more to learn about neuroplasticity, but these are basically the Yeah, The Basics.

Tazmin 8:12

Okay, so I'm gonna go into a little bit of a rabbit hole because my own for my own selfish reasons. Yeah, we'll get back to more more professional rabbit holes. Though I grew up in a time where people didn't retire. My grandfather didn't retire. Even though he formally retired, he carried on working, which meant he, you know, he moved to a different country, he was supposed to go to Australia to retire, he then then went on to founding another business, which did really well. And I am wondering whether that then helps with your mind health with your brain health, as opposed to these days where getting rich, you know, being retired is a goal, and being able to retire early is a goal. What then happens to your mind?

Giulia 9:10

Yeah, so I think it depends on how we mean retirement, because a lot of the time we think about retirement as we want to stay on the beach forever, and, you know, like not doing anything all day. And that means that you know, in that case, for sure, it will have a negative impact on our cognitive abilities because we're not simulated. So that's the reason why they say that you should always sort of Yeah, exercise your mind. Or doing like, I don't know, crosswords and Sudoku because, you know, you keep your muscle your memory going throughout the length is exercised. And it has been shown as well, even when with retired people, how cognitive abilities are, you know, changing as a function of what they do during the day, so how stimulated they are. So for example, people in a care home, they have two different groups or like, I don't remember if it was two different groups or two different care homes, but to some of them, they gave nothing to do all day. And to some of them, they gave a plan to look after. And the ones that had the plan to look after because they were more simulated, and they felt like they had also they had like power to do more with their time. They had increased cognitive abilities, or like less reduced, I guess, cognitive abilities than the the other group. So definitely like, the more stimulated we are, the more neuroplasticity comes to the rescue of our cognitive functions. However, I think we need to make a caveat. A lot of things all at the same time can also be detrimental because neuroplasticity is promoted by you know, all the things that they tell you to look after. And sleep, for example, diet exercise, it's also been shown to be increased by Musico therapy, for example. So there's a lot of things that can promote it, but definitely, like keep being stimulated even like when we're in a retirement age. It's definitely one of those. Okay,

Tazmin: 11:26

so neuroplasticity, how can it be helpful in some, so this whole podcast is around how to make people's careers and lives better? What tips would you give on how your plasticity can help in that space?

Giulia: 11:43

So, in the professional and personal setting, I think we tend a lot to focus on, like the development of new skills, which is great, or the development of new physical activities. But we don't focus so much on our own behaviours, or internal thoughts. And I ran a study for my last Brighton SEO on professionals and feelings in the workplace, and these professionals came from different industries, it covered a wide range of ages. And it was it was striking how much negative feelings can affect and are prominent into the industry, right? So neuroplasticity can help with emotional regulation and to change those negative thoughts. And as a result, behaviours as well, because we have we do have these, these thoughts that we don't necessarily, like give too much weight on, but because of the way the neuroplasticity works, because of you know, all of the repetitions of the negative thoughts that might be Oh, I'm not capable enough, Oh, I hate my job. It's like I don't want to go in today. If you keep repeating this to yourself, then basically like, it's a highway to like, to that negative thought that or to those negative thoughts. So it's at the basically how conditioning as well works because, you know, the Pavlovian conditioning example, when you have a dog being conditioned to the sound of a bell and developing like, I don't remember how it's called in English, Jesus, now, English is failing me. By they have like, real physical reactions to the sound of the bell because they expect food. And the same goes for us. If we condition ourselves to a certain thought and behaviour, then it just like becomes more and more automatic. Whereas we need to make sure that, well, first, we need to acknowledge that we have power over our thoughts. And then that when we need to make sure that we use that power in order to change our behaviours as well. So one of the things that I came across as well, and it's an old model, to be honest, because it's by Albert Ellis, and I believe in these cognitive psychologists from the 80s, I believe. And it's a model on emotional regulation and how we can use exercise, you know, our reputation to change our thoughts. And when I checked with, like, when I ran my study, I brought up that model because it's the easiest one at the moment that everyone can can look into. It's called ABCDE. It takes negative thoughts as a result, maybe of, you know, a bad experience. And he trains you to challenge the beliefs or your negative thoughts and change them into something else changing into something constructive. So that's like we're we're in there. Neuroplasticity comes out out into play because we don't even realise it. But by exercising ourselves to challenge our beliefs, then we create these alternative highways that doesn't go directly to the negative thought but goes to what if instead, this adverse situation puts me in a position to do something creative and constructive about it? So yeah, definitely neuroplasticity can help in a professional setting where emotional regulation, creativity as well, because we just create new things, instead of going to the same connection. reduce cognitive declines with with, which we've seen, is working across our professional personal life as well. And resilience as well, it teaches us not to give up in front of hurdles. So yeah, I think there's a lot to be learned in a professional setting as well. Okay,

Tazmin: 15:58

so we're gonna take a break in a little while. And I'd like to go through the steps of these, you know, the model, you're talking. But before we do that, the two examples that you said, I'm not good at this, or I hate my job. Using those two examples. How can somebody saying I'm not good at this? Use neuroplasticity to get them to a place where they feel more confident about that thing?

Giulia: 16:31

Yeah. So the first thing would be isolating where that belief comes from? Why do you feel like you're not good enough? Do you have you know, is it coming from a certain situation in a certain day or from a number of situations? Or is it coming maybe from other factors that might not even be related to your job, it might be related to the fact that you see everybody else and you perceive them being better than you. And as a result, you think that you know, you're not good enough. And the way that we can use neuroplasticity? And all the time that I use this term like using neuroplasticity, it's implicit because we're using techniques which elicit neuroplasticity, but for life simplicity, we're gonna keep it as that. It's like, disputing everything, like every belief that comes, or every consequence that comes as a as a result of that. So if you're feeling like you're not good enough? I think so according to the model, as well, one of the first things to do is gather evidence for that. Is it true? Like, what are the situations where, like, you feel objectively, like you were not good enough, where you're not good enough to get into, I don't know, a specific programme, where you're not good enough to get a promotion. Okay, fine. So you got your evidence. And as it always been the case, like, as they're being evidence of you being good enough for other things, maybe. So the first thing is doing that. And then you have to play a bit, or you have to do a bit of roleplay and disputing your belief. So, you know, when you go to a friend, and you're like, Oh, I'm not good enough. And that friend will be to make you feel better, they will try to challenge that if they're good friends, if not, maybe like you should change friends. But they will be. Yeah, so Well, it's not, it's not true. Because, you know, there was this time where you did this thing, and you were definitely good enough. Plus, you're good at these other thing, plus, I don't know, and they will try to, you know, create other pathways create other ways that you see yourself and then find alternatives as well. I mean, in this case, it's more like it's more related to where the feeling arises from can it be because like, you're really not good enough? Or can it be because maybe you have a bad manager like we are those it can be maybe because it's not maybe that you're not good enough, maybe your communication skills are not good enough and that's something you can change. And when you isolate those those alternatives as well then you can find a way to work on those things. And that gives you a feeling of control which is another really you know, really important thing because a feeling of lack of control gives you you know, something that's called learned helplessness has been shown in labs as well etc. I'm not going to go into another rabbit hole because we will be seeing until tomorrow. But on the contrary, though, if you feel like you have control over your thoughts and your behaviours, then you're more prompt to take an action on them. So yeah, this is a thing in a nutshell.

Tazmin: 20:05

So I'm going to push you a little bit more on on that topic, and then we'll take a break. I hate my job. Now, we certainly are not saying that every job that you go to will be wonderful, you'll have great culture in the organisation, you'll have a wonderful manager, we have been, I certainly have been in a place of work, which wasn't okay. And I used to feel the dread of going in to work because it didn't fit mice, you just, you know, forget about the actual work elements, everything else that went alongside it. How in that instance, could I have used neuroplasticity to help me? I wouldn't have been able to change my job, just through the power of my mind, what would you have advised me in that stage?

Giulia: 20:58

I think in that case is like, again, like isolating, what are the factors that don't want to make you go into work? If it's not external factors, then maybe like you have everything's, you know, like, you have a great salary, you have a great manager, that, you know, the workloads fine, the people are nice, it might be nice, not the right job for you. And we need to entertain those thoughts as well. And why it's dread? dreading to do that. Because, you know, you open yourself to the opportunity to many opportunities that you might not have entertained before. It's necessary because he might, it might be the lack of purpose. That's what you know, like, that's, that is what is making you hate your job. So something that comes from within it might be that you're, you're listening to do something else like that you. I mean, I see that for myself. Obviously, I don't hate my job, like, full disclosure, like, my job's fine. I like it. I do, like I tell my manager, every day that one day, I'll be running away with the circus though. Because like, I know that there's this creative part of me that has to have the creative release. And right now I do it other ways where like, you know, educating people on neuroscience and using my background, because it's something that gives me purpose. But I think in that case, yeah, it's more like looking within and being really honest with yourself. Because we, by creating these routines of going into work, and also like living in a world that sort of glorifies the hustle and going into work at 5am. And stay on till 9pm, we're trained to think that that's the only way to success. Yeah. And that's not like we need to train ourselves to think that there's something else by creating these alternative connections in our brain and thinking that success is related to how you feel as well, and to your purpose, your well being. That's how you can use neuroplasticity to address a thought.

Tazmin: 23:07

That's really, really interesting. And I hear what you're saying about lack of purpose. So for the longest time, my world was tech digital. And I was good at it. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the company, I enjoyed the team, everything was wonderful. But as I learned more and more about learning and development, that passion in me evoked. And I found opportunities within the organisation to get more involved in that. And then suddenly, I came to a cross path. Do I continue? Or do I take the plunge? And I decided to take the plunge partly actually, because I wanted to build a life around my interests that would carry me further than the age of 65, which is when we we say okay, we're going to retire them. So if I spent 10 years building the business, then even after 65 I can I can reduce the amount of work, but I can still be doing meaningful work. And in my you know, I was telling someone at the weekend, I have no plans of retiring. I can reduce I can pivots but I'm not going to stop because every day I get to help someone so why would you stop doing that? But but it was only when I like who said I love that phrase need to entertain those thoughts that maybe there is a different way?

Giulia: 24:33

Yeah, and I think yours is a perfect example. I remember talking to you after your Brighton SEO talk and like it was 10am and I was like crying my eyes out. Because you were talking about those things. Like I still have like Anna shivers. Now we're like chills now thinking about that talk because it was about you like creating, like another life for yourself or the John, was it 54 and

Tazmin: 25:02

54? I'm 56. Now. So it's taken two years to sort of like really solidify what that looks like. But for two years, it was training, exploring, what are the building blocks of that new life? So yeah, 54 was when I started.

Giulia: 25:20

Yeah, and I found it super inspiring. Because a lot of the time where, even like, because of lack of time, or like, lack of energy, we just go to the path of least resistance, we just like, go with the flow, whatever. And I feel like a lot of us, you know, according to our career these way really, myself included, I just went with the first job that came up and then happen to be good at it. Because, you know, like, I wanted to learn, so I just became good at that. But there are so many other ways to use our time and to Yeah, just like, find the purpose, obviously, like making sure that you can also survive through the month. But if we can channel those those sorts of skills and thoughts and yeah, creative creativity, I guess, and channelled into a job, then that's like the ultimate goal because you don't even need to, you don't even feel the need to retire at that point. As you as you mentioned,

Tazmin: 26:25

that's been really it's been great conversation. So far, we're going to take a short break. And then I'm really eager to learn a little bit more about the ABCDE model is it sounds super simple, but I've got a feeling. There's a lot of depth to it. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to this wonderfully interesting conversation about neuroplasticity. I've certainly learnt a lot. And I'm keen to learn more. So Giulia, tell us more about this model you've been talking about?

Giulia: 26:56

Yeah, so the ABCD model is a model of cognitive therapy, cognitive behavioural therapy. So it's made up of five steps. You can write them down, or I'll have them on my site as well. And but so the first one is the A so identifying the adversity, and that's to identify the adversity to make like cause, sorry, can we start to show

Tazmin: 27:22

that starts again. So don't worry at all. It's good that you said and I'm glad you're comfortable enough to say. Just wait till Hello, everyone. And welcome back to this really interesting discussion on neuroplasticity with Giulia. So Giulia told me more about the model you were talking about?

Giulia: 27:52

Yeah, so the ABCD model is a model developed by cognitive behavioural psychologist called Albert Ellis. And I found it really useful when I came across it the first time, so I'm just going to share it as it is. It's a model that's, that's helpful to challenge negative thoughts and to transform them into something that we can make use for like, you know, constructive behaviours. So the ABCDE model is made up of five steps. The first one being a adversity, you need to identify what is the adversity that makes you feel the way you feel? B is the belief. So what is the belief that, you know, like, for example, we talked about the later Oh, I'm not good enough at this. See the consequence? What do you feel and do as a result, if you don't feel good enough at something you might not put yourself up for other opportunities? For example, and this is helpful already, these three steps are very helpful to sort of detach, what is our belief from what is the truth because we don't see clearly when we're talking about ourselves. And when we think of ourselves, we just like see our belief and we take it as the absolute truth. However, we need to detach them in order to be able to do the following steps, which are the disputation and the generalisation. So the disputation is made up of other four steps. It's when we challenge the belief that we isolated so I'm not good enough. We're gonna talk about all of the way that we can falsify that belief. So we gather evidence, for example, we find alternatives to that thought. So it may be that it's not that I'm not good enough, but I'm not in the right environment to thrive. What are the implications of me feeling like this? Because for example, as we mentioned, like it's also part of the consequences if I Not if I'm feeling like I'm not good enough, I might not put myself up for other opportunities, I might decide not to use my time to find what I'm good at, etc. And finally, is it useful? It's not because a lot of the time our negative thoughts block ourselves and they become so overwhelming that we cannot think about anything else. And we might even stop doing what we like. So this is like the big step, that disputation that's the one where neuroplasticity is involved the most, because we are reframing those thoughts. And we're recreating those cognitive connections in a yeah, in a way that makes it easier for us to, to think positively about the situation or think constructively about the situation. And the last step is an organisation which is, you know, as a result of this disputation exercise, we might feel angry, hopefully feel energised, to take the steps in the right direction. So for example, if I found myself, then it's not that I'm not good enough by it might be the not the right job, not the right environment, now, maybe I'm not good in a certain aspect of my job, then I take the step to, I don't know, improve my communication, or improve my technical SEO skills, for example, and so on. So that's the model in a nutshell, that's actually

Tazmin: 31:15

very, very useful. And I think I'm actually going to write that down somewhere where I can see it everyday. Because what would I'm imagining would do was, take the emotion out of it. So you can start actually logically walking through your, your thoughts on it, and getting to a better place. So now, I think that's really useful. Yeah, I think what we'll do is we'll find or if you could send me a really good link to this study, and then we'll add it to the show notes, so people can have a bit more background on that. Absolutely. Brilliant. All right. So we're, you know, running shorter time is we took so much time before the break. I want to end with this, what else should we know, to to enable us to harness that power of neuroplasticity in our day to day life?

Giulia: 32:12

I think more than though we need because I think we know already, but we don't make use of it. It's our knowledge that we have the superpower. And that's a lifelong process. And I know that a lot of the time, you know, we kind of become lazy, and we're like, Well, I've always done things this way, or even for behaviour, for example, you know, we tend to justify not only ourselves, but even other people and be like, well, he's always been this way anyway, or like, you know, we tend to find ways to justify the lack of action in certain aspects, especially when it comes to behaviours and thoughts. And I think what we need to take into account is that these can be applied at any age, if you want to change your thoughts, your behaviours in might be more difficult in adulthood, because just because it's like, you know, there's sensitive windows in childhood, where it's more like the brain is more receptive to certain things. But we can change everything that we want in adulthood as well. I even like I think there was a study on taxi drivers, and throughout their entire life, as a taxi driver, they develop more and more grey matter in the hippocampus, which is, you know, the area for spatial spatial recognitions and memory. And this is so interesting, because it shows you that you can have, you can have that power at any age, and you can exercise it at, you know, everywhere you are, whatever is your situation. And even if you have, you know, sometimes we feel like we can't, because we're struggling with other things. And I understand that. But bless the city, as always, has also been, you know, shown, for example, to help with physical recovery. So if it has that power over physical recovery, it can definitely have that power over your mind. So make sure that you learn a bit more about yourself about your mental schemes about your automatic thoughts, and try to challenge them because you can and that will change your life potentially.

Tazmin: 34:30

So again, um, you know, we've talked about this before I spoke about it a brighten, self reflection, and analysing yourself giving yourself that time and space to think about why you do what you do. What you would like to do, what sort of things you're thinking about, is a hint toward, like you said at the beginning people to get better go off and do a new course to learn new skills, but often what's left On, on looks at is within and how we're functioning.

Giulia: 35:07

Yeah. And I think especially now and Petra, who spoke as well, at the Brighton SEO had a really great, really great presentation that, but these are skills that might be replaced in the future, whereas your soft skills and your emotional intelligence are something that will stay and that you can always reinvent in order to adapt to the new world because that's what it is. Neuroplasticity is the ability to adapt to new environments, new challenges. And yeah, everything else,

Tazmin: 35:44

a great talk that she gave us. Well, in fact, that was that session of three was my favourite session with the whole of writing, see. Okay, so we've come to the end. Is that your key takeaway? Or is there something else that you want people to take away from this episode?

Giulia: 36:06

And I think that was my key takeaway. Really, just remember, these is your superpower. You don't need to wear a cape or anything. You have your brain at your disposal, so make sure you use it.

Tazmin: 36:19

Lovely. What's the best career advice you've ever received?

Giulia: 36:25

So it wasn't even like advice. In that sense, I think it was an advice in disguise. So I was massively scared of speaking like in company calls, client calls, everything you wouldn't tell now because like, now, nobody can shut me off. But yeah, it was like I was terrified. And I remember as part of my professional plan, my manager told me Look, just do a presentation on whatever you like, and then you just present to the company. And everyone was so good at SEO that I didn't want to do an SEO presentation. And it was like, no, no, it doesn't need to be on SEO presentation. Like literally do it if you want to do it on Parliament do it on parliament. And I didn't end up doing it on Parliament's but I ended up doing it in neuroscience, which was books, and which was, you know, something that I studied and had been at the back of my brain forever, because I graduated, got my licencing psychology and then had to find a job because I moved away. So I just like, I think that was the trigger for me to start thinking about my career differently, which now comes to naturally because, you know, I, I see myself not only as an SEO professional, because that's a skill that I have. But I see myself as somebody who has experience and expertise in neuroscience and can merge the two into something that's more creative. So yeah, it wasn't necessarily advice. But I think that helped me so much in finding a direction for myself that it's I found it really invaluable. And that was 2019. So it was a long time ago now.

Tazmin: 38:09

So, you know, being able to speak about a topic that is passionate to use and one know what's passionate. Yeah.

Giulia: 38:19

And I think it could be like, if we wanted to summarise it, it's find your authentic self. Don't be everything that everyone else is because you know, there is one of you so embrace absolutely

Tazmin: 38:30

wonderful. Who would you like to give a shout out to from either within the SEO community or further afield?

Giulia: 38:40

I think within the SEO community, the women in tech SEO, you know, because I found so much support there when I was starting out thinking, you know, like, talking about neuroscience, because that's something that I'm super passionate about, but I always felt a bit, you know, yeah, a bit unsure, because I'm like, will people like it? Are people even interested in and I always got just support, not only about, you know, my speaking opportunities, but also my, yeah, just like, my professional life, I got so much advice, or even like reading some of the challenges that other people were facing and reading the replies that were there. Yeah, it was great. And then I read because she put up our community building court earlier in the year. And I participated. And I was like, because I had this idea. You know, I've been so lost back in the time when I finished my studies and I couldn't really find find my place either in academia or in the industry. So I created my bio he took me so long because I had nobody to confront myself with so I'm I created a community thanks to that court as well, because they gave me the tools and like the information to start out. Exactly for those people that have studied and neuroscience and psychology and don't really know where they fit in, in order for them to be exposed to opportunities in the industry, particularly, and then maybe like in academia, but that are like less related to research, so that they can start exploring those journeys, because I think a lot of the time, I've heard people just don't sign up to study psychology because they're like, Well, I don't find a job. Like I won't find a job later. But there's so much you can do. And there's, you know, it's not necessarily like very advertised. So, yeah.

Tazmin: 40:43

If I was able to do another degree would be psychology. One day,

Giulia: 40:48

yeah, I will do like, I would do it twice more. That was like, if I ever regretted a choice, that was not like, I would go back in 1000 years and still do the same choice, a lot of

Tazmin: 41:01

passion spilling out there. If somebody wants to reach out to you, what's what's the best platform to find you on?

Giulia: 41:11

So I'm all over the place. Really. LinkedIn, I think is the easiest one. So I'm Giulia Panozzo on LinkedIn. Otherwise, Twitter. I'm called sequence and search. I'm sure it's gonna be tagged because like, on the Yeah, it's quite hard to find if you don't know where the capital is. And then I got a website called neuroscientific.com. Where I post my blogs, and where there are my contacts.

Tazmin: 41:42

We will link to all of those when this episode goes live. So yes, people find you. So look, thank you so much. For this. I've had a great time. I know that you and I will carry on discussing this topic even offline. But thank you for coming on and sharing all of your knowledge with our guests. And a quick wrap up for me. So like I said at the beginning of the episode, if anybody would like to support the podcast, there's various ways you can do it. One is the one of donation via the buy me a coffee link, which is on the website, and also following us on Twitter. Again, the link is on our website. Juliette? Thank you again, so much.

Giulia: 42:29

Thank you so much. I had a great time.