Being a Decent Earthling: Inclusion and Representation in SEO with Laura Iancu

Sarah: Hello, Laura

Laura: Hiya. How are you?

Sarah: I'm very well, thank you. How about yourself?

Laura: Rested, which is wow for me.

Sarah: So just to give our listeners behind the scenes a bit of context, so we are recording on a Saturday, but we were meant to record a couple of days ago, and I was the one who asked to move the session. But you were like, "Ah, thank you, because I'm sounding like Darth Vader at the moment." So you're not sounding like Darth Vader, so this is good.

Sarah: You must be feeling better.

Laura: Yes. Recovered, rested, happy to go. I actually have a holiday planned soon, so I am buzzing. Nice. Where are you gonna go? I'm off to Porto. It's my first time in Porto. I think my fourth or fifth time in Portugal. So yeah there's this thing called European Search Awards, and I'm lucky enough to be involved, so I'm gonna be there.

Laura: So when you say you're involved... I was a judge. And I'm actually gonna present an award, which is a bit yeah, mad. I don't know how- Amazing ... honestly, they, you need to dress black tie. I don't do black tie. I do cosplay, so yeah. Watch this space. What can I say? Could you not do cosplay black tie?

Laura: I suppose. There are a lot of characters out there that they're very kind of formal, so I might.

Sarah: I love that, and I love how we've just got a little insight into the world of Laura there. I mean, let's not talk about what we were meant to talk about and just spend the whole 30 minutes- ... talking cosplay, right?

Sarah: That's what our listeners want. Why not? I'm down if you are. Just, I'll just try and find a chen- tenuous link about what you can learn from cosplay. Love that, yeah. And implement it to

Laura: SEO. I'm sure there's a connection out there.

Sarah: Or how cosplay can help with mindfulness. Love. There's gotta be something there.

Laura: Yes. I mean, to be fair, there definitely is something out there. Just something about being in a character, isn't it? I suppose it's similar to acting in a way. I wouldn't know that. I've never acted a day in my life. But when you actually dress up as a character, and I know I'm gonna sound, sound 12, but it just takes you back a bit to a simple time.

Laura: And I just love that. I just love stepping out of myself and, and embodying- something else and kind of have that mindset. I think that's why it helps me a lot with my day-to-day work as well because n- I'm gonna jump to SEO very quickly, but it's just very natural for me to step into user's shoes regardless- Yes

Laura: of where they are. So yeah, there's

Sarah: your connection. And creativity. Yes. We all need to have a outlet for creativity. So, one way that I work on my creativity is through the podcast. One way that you're working on your creativity is cosplay. It's all- Yes ... it's all related. But I'm very... We're gonna... It's dangerous territory, Laura.

Sarah: We c- we need to stop talking cosplay- Yes ... before- Probably. Yeah, it can go, it can go very, very differently. Imagine our listeners being like, "No, I really want to know all

Laura: about- ... cosplay." Well, if you want- Well- ... to learn all about cosplay, do it. Just do it. Just,

Sarah: just do it.

Laura: Yes.

Sarah: Okay. So what frustrates you most about the current state of the internet when it comes to representation and accessibility?

Laura: Well, yes. We're getting, yeah, very very deep into this already. So y- there's plenty to, to sort of address, but I think one of the most frustrating thing about it for me has been seeing the same sort of global product, right? Built around a very standard default user that speaks the same language is from the same culture, has the same needs as everyone else and yada, yada, you can name it, right?

Laura: It's, it's so unhelpful in the long run. It's so unhelpful. It's boring, downright boring because you assume that everyone's the same. And diversity is fun, let's be honest about it, right? Just, just step out of yourself a bit and see how fun it is. And how it's been sort of promoted as of late where I feel like people don't necessarily look at it structurally, but they look more of, more of it as a, as an image thing.

Laura: I dunno if that makes sense. You know- Mm-hmm ... slapping a, a green leaf or something or a, a, a flag or just to sort of like show that you're, you're there representing and, and supporting some other voices rather than the standard default user. And I think, yeah, that's something that frustrates me a lot especially 'cause I have had conversations with business owners to kinda see where they stand, and it's not, it's not an isolated- behavior.

Laura: It's not something that we're just noticing as users and, and, and people on the internet. We use it. We, we, we, we actually see a lot as professionals. And then obviously you try to challenge it, and then it becomes... It can become something constructive, but a lot of the times can become a very difficult conversation.

Laura: You might lose a client, but to be fair, yeah, I don't necessarily regret if I lose a client over there, over that. I do regret not being able to make my point across, but then I also understand that we're different people. So yeah, it's, it's a fun, it's a fun one. We can yeah, get into it quite, quite deep, I guess.

Laura: I

Sarah: think sadly, it is really frustrating when... 'Cause I can think of examples when you really care about something or s- you, you feel really passionate about something and you want others to, but for whatever reason, it's just not landing or they don't seem to see the importance, and that is frustrating. So I wonder, do you think it comes down to money, prioritization, uh, or is it just a lack of education or a lack of awareness?

Laura: Hmm. It's a very interesting question because it, this, I think it really depends on the situation. I feel like there are people who have the awareness, they're very much aware but they are restricted by the budget, if you wanna put it that way. Uh, they have to release something fast, yesterday, release it yesterday kind of thing.

Laura: You know, that urgency that happens with, with marketing in general and this world and, it, well, the business world, I suppose, where, where we live. And I don't necessarily think that's an excuse right? Be- because the more you practice, what you know, the more it becomes a habit, natural. It, it, it becomes the, the default setting that you're in, right?

Laura: And I feel like there's no excuse of not practicing this. Mm ... even if it's on borrowed time, even if it's on, on, It's, it's something that you have to start from somewhere. And if you have that awareness already but you think, "Oh, I can't do it because of the budget," you can do it in bits, like a drip there, a drip there, a drip there, until it becomes the norm kind of thing.

Sarah: So straight away what I'm thinking is if budget constraints or money, finances is an issue, maybe rather than shutting it down altogether, it's a conversation where you say, "I really see the importance of this. I really want to do it, but-" Obviously, can we have a talk about what can be achieved with this amount of resource, this amount of budget, and then kinda work it back that way?

Laura: Yeah. Reverse engineer it. You know, whatever works, I suppose. But I think the most important thing here is to have the mindset of doing so. Yes.

Speaker 3: Yes.

Laura: Very, very little differences between the way we looked, right? So I, I, I hadn't, I haven't had exposure to Asian cultures, Black cultures. I haven't had any kind of exposure of this sense until I left the country to, to visit- Mm ... or work abroad or go to uni and, if you follow my path, I've, yeah, been, uh, all around.

Laura: But that's the thing, I, I left with an open mindset. I left with, with I want to learn about it. I'm curious about it. I, I come from a place of acceptance because I am traveling to these places, and I'm gonna be exposh- exposed to this culture that already exists there. I'm not there to change the world or, or, or bring my Eastern Europeanness in there necessarily and shove it down people's throat, right?

Laura: I wanna learn about you first because I'm on your territory, per se, if you... I don't really believe in boundaries, but I suppose when, when, when a population is established in a certain place, you are actually going on, you know, in, on their territory at the end of the day. So yeah, I think the whole, the whole point I'm trying to make here is, regardless of your education and background, okay, there's no excuse of, of being a decent earthling 'cause we actually live in this.

Laura: You, you just have to come from a place of curiosity. Oh, and also if you find out that something's not quite what you expected, right? Or let's say you had an idea about a certain community, because these things can be inherited from education, background, family school sometimes, and so on.

Laura: Challenge that. Challenge th- that, that status quo, and also don't be defensive if you've been corrected. Just accept it Take it for what it is and learn, learn from it. So yeah, I'm sorry. I was sounding a bit like I like to call myself a, a bit of a search activist, and I think you can kinda see it coming out of me right now.

Sarah: Definitely. Definitely. And it's really... One, it's lovely to see your, your passion, and it's really obvious that you really care about it. But we need to be having these conversations because yeah, there might be people who are listening who are like, a light bulb moment for them of "Okay, yes- Mm-hmm

Sarah: this is a area that I really need to look into. I need to..." I suppose there's understanding your own biases, isn't there? Because not everyone has the same upbringing, not everyone has the same experience, not everyone has the same access to certain things. And I suppose there's also an element of checking your own privilege, isn't there?

Sarah: And- Yeah ... and

Laura: Please say it louder. Like...

Sarah: Check your privilege. Check your privilege.

Laura: Yes.

Sarah: So we're talking about online and how it can show up, but I'm guessing it can also show up in the workplace, can't it?

Laura: Yes? What, really? Oh, I did not know that. Sarah, so, for the purpose of keeping this civil yes, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lead with my own examples. But yes- Okay ... it can, it can, it can show, it can show up quite badly in the workplace. And I think it's, it's a combination of things, right? It's, it's things like not learning how to pronounce someone's name properly, for example, and, and just avoiding to say it out loud or even address that person, right?

Laura: So imagine you're working with an immigrant, right? Someone coming from, I don't know, a, a, let's say an Asian state where obviously we're Westerners, right? We're used to our own alphabets. We have Cyrillic, we've got the Latin alphabet, so we, we kind- we're aware with how we pronounce things and, and we can kinda get it when we're from Europe how, or, or the US, for example.

Laura: But when you, when you work with someone from Asia, for example, and I've had that experience, right? I worked, I I worked at uni in Asia for a year in China, and I, I, I was telling you actually this about, I was, I was talking about this before before we started recording, but I feel like it's, it's worth mentioning h- here as well, just the effort that I made learning.

Laura: Sorry, Darth Vader coming up. Oh,

Sarah: no,

Laura: Darth Vader is here, folks. Oh, no. Yes, my, my voice, sorry, recovering. So what I was gonna say is the effort that I've put into actually learning my colleagues' names, 'cause I, I, I worked in a uni, and obviously I was the only Westerner there. There was no one else like me.

Laura: No one looking like me, no one speaking like me, no one with a Western name. So I, I found it a bit shocking that people would introduce to me with their English names. And I'm like, "But you're not English. Like, why are you using an English name? Let's learn your actual name. I'd like to know you.

Laura: I'd like to... I'm here. I want to know your culture. I want to know you." So yes, I was there practicing Chinese names. So I feel like if, if someone can do something like that, and it wasn't hard. It literally wasn't hard. It... And I think you would agree with me that it's not hard to actually just give the extra seconds and actually learn how to say someone's name, right?

Laura: Exactly. And imagine that in a workplace here or anywhere around the world where you have someone with a different name and not being addressed because of... They feel marginalized. It, it's as simple as that.

Sarah: So something that I'm always hot on is whenever I have a guest on the podcast, I always make sure that I ask the question of how...

Sarah: 'Cause I want to make sure that I get their name right because, 'cause that's 101, isn't it? Yeah. Or when I was moderating at BrightonSEO, when I was introducing the different speakers to the stage, I wanted to make sure that I got their names right, and it's something that might seem really small, but it's not.

Sarah: It can make- No ... a huge impact. And just by sort of saying to someone, "I really want to know how to pronounce your name," or just being honest and being like "I'm a bit unsure of how to say your name. Can I, can I check?" And then as long as you're trying. And also, the other side of this is you might make a mistake or you might not get it completely right because of different ways of people speaking and languages and things like that.

Sarah: But the key thing is at least you've tried and you've asked the question.

Laura: And just saying that, "Hey, yes, this is us. We can... We see each other." Right? It's an extra layer that I think a lot of people, especially in the workplaces, they, they tend to ignore or take it by default because someone looks a certain way. They just assumed. And you cannot be more wrong honestly. There's, there's that aspect.

Laura: The, the, the accents as well, when you start making fun of people's accents. I've had that in the past. I know I don't sound- Oh, no ... typical, like, European, but the way I say things, for example, I, I remember I, in a, in a meeting a, a while back, I'm, I'm a freelancer now, by the way, so I don't deal with this anymore, but I've had, I've had my fair share of experience.

Laura: But the way I said banana at some point, I don't know, I... Something about banana. I can't remember. Uh- Sounds, sounds fine to me. No, but apparently I say something like banana, or I don't know. I appreciate in the moment, it was a fun thing, right? But then it was the entire day, and it just made me- Mm-hmm

Laura: aware of how I speak. And I know it came from a, from a place of, like, probably trying to connect. I, I honestly, I didn't take it as ill-intended, but hearing it throughout the day, it just made me so aware of how I speak. And- But, but- ... I was like, "Ugh, I don't like this." I, I know it's coming from a fun place, okay, but once is enough perhaps.

Sarah: Yeah, and- And I get that it's never... Yeah, it's probably not coming from ill intentions, and I don't know, they're probably trying to make a joke or something. But it's those sort of things that matter, and I bet you most of the people who do that can't even speak another language. So, it's quite... And I'm not doing, I'm not meaning to be judgemental because I can't speak another language.

Sarah: But I just mean it's having that respect of, do you know what? English might not be their, like, first language, and they're bloody well they speak another language. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I, I don't have the finest words here to explain what I'm saying, but it's just having that respect and being like, "Oh, actually, they've learned a whole new language here.

Sarah: I only speak one." We are gonna have to go to a short break. Time is flying, Laura. Yeah. And I knew it would with this episode and this topic- ... just because there's just so much to unpick and talk about. But we're just gonna have to have a part two at some point. Yeah. But I just wanted to pick up something else, and it's about understanding- Uh, people's cultures- Yes

Sarah: and understanding sort of, so in Western society we celebrate Christmas. And that's holiday and that's when people aren't expected to work because it's about celebration and being with their family. But in other cultures they have their own celebrations, they have their own important days. So one that comes to mind is Ramadan.

Sarah: And it's about having the awareness of what someone is celebrating, what someone is going through. Because during Ramadan, for example, there is a fasting stage, yeah? And just by being empathetic and thinking, "Okay this person, they're celebrating Ramadan, they're fasting. How can we make that time easier for them?"

Sarah: So being aware when is the best time to jump on a call or record a podcast, for example. But when to be respectful of their time and I don't know, maybe they've got different celebrations going on. When Ramadan comes to the end, being respectful of that day. But it's just about understanding other cultures and understanding that, yeah, we've all got our own important days.

Sarah: We've all got our own times of celebration as well.

Laura: Absolutely. And it's a very good example the Ramadan because I've, I've actually noticed there's almost an avoidance of interacting sometimes in the workplace throughout these times with, with professionals. Almost oh, they don't exist. Yes, they do.

Laura: But let's, create a space where they can, they can feel, as you said, the fasting element of it, right? I mean, I, I get cranky if I don't eat. Now amplify that with hours and hours and hours and hours, and then days on end where y- where you do the same thing, to respect your culture And think how, how can I approach this person?

Laura: I need something urgent from them, but is it urgent? You know, do I need to, to, to interrupt something that's ex- extremely important for them? So yeah, just asking these questions before. And I have a, another example which I think it's... And something that's happening to, has happened to me a couple of times actually.

Laura: I come from a, a various background, so I I've got like, d- on, on my dad's side is Jewish, whereas on my mom's side is Christian Orthodox, which is something that's very common in Romania. Most people are Christian Orthodox. I haven't been raised as, as of a faith kind of thing, so I...

Laura: But I was exposed to both of these worlds. Obviously, I st- stuck with Christmas because presents. Yes. But it's, it's just one of those things where people just assume because you look a certain way, they assume your religion. And-

Speaker 3: Yes ...

Laura: yeah. And they, they never think for a second, oh, actually, they might be Jewish or they, they, they might not celebrate at all.

Laura: They might be agnostic. They might not care. So it's, yeah, it's... Perhaps let's just stop assuming and ask if we're curious about things. Mm ... and yeah, I, I, that's just my conclusion. But ask without being too invasive into, into someone's life, and ask if you can afford to ask. I- Yeah ... just, yeah, smell the room kind of thing before you, before you do anything.

Sarah: Yeah. I think it's all context at the end of the day. If you... It's being respectful, so... And it's about not being too invasive, but you can still be curious, can't you? And especially if someone brings up, For example, let's, let's keep with Ramadan. Mm-hmm. And maybe they, y- you ask them for something, and they sort of mention, "Ah I've got this going on because it's Ramadan."

Sarah: Because they've kinda opened up the conversation, you could be like, "Oh, yes, of course. Do whatever you need to do." And then you could be like, "Could I just ask a question?" And then you're giving them the space to say yes or no. And then if they say yes, be like, "Ah, tell me more." So, me and Tasmin have had lots of wonderful conversations about cultures, religion, lots of different things, but it's about being respectful.

Sarah: And of course, me and Tasmin's relationship is we're really close friends, so we've built that up over the time. So you've got to be careful. You've got to know your audience. It's like there's certain questions that you can ask your best mates that you wouldn't ask a stranger, and it's the same here, isn't it?

Sarah: It's being respectful and knowing what is right, and there's a wrong and right way of approaching this as well. Right. I'm going to be st- not stern, but let's take a break 'Cause, 'cause we're over. I mean, this is a really good conversation. I'm really enjoying this. Good for my soul. But let's talk- take a short break and join us for part two where we'll be getting more into this, and we'll be giving you practical strategies, because that's what we do on this podcast, about what you can do to be more inclusive and be a better earthling, as you said earlier.

Sarah: Yes.